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	<title>Comments on: Talkin&#8217; About Growth</title>
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		<title>By: iain</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 07:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Yeah i agree that &#039;unwanted&#039; doesn&#039;t sound quite right. It was just a one liner in a discussion about something else. If anyone really cares here is a link to the podcast:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/09/science_weekly_for_september_2.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah i agree that &#8216;unwanted&#8217; doesn&#8217;t sound quite right. It was just a one liner in a discussion about something else. If anyone really cares here is a link to the podcast:</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/09/science_weekly_for_september_2.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/09/science_weekly_for_september_2.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: JeremyC</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>JeremyC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 07:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-128</guid>
		<description>I mean brains, Brian doesn&#039;t do sex surveys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean brains, Brian doesn&#8217;t do sex surveys.</p>
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		<title>By: JeremyC</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>JeremyC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 07:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Last year the Bad Science column in the Guardian twigged to the glaring anomaly in sex surveys. You know the ones where the news paper report always report (po faced) goes something like this.... &#039;the latest sex survey reports that men have 18 partners and women have five a year a decade a century, etc etc&#039; or 5 vs 2 or 7 vs 1 etc, etc. 

The only difference in this was last year or the year before when ew Zealnd came up with exactly the reverse which made me think that the New Zealanders saw us Australians coming to do yet another sex survey and they decided to mess with the brians of those doing the survey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last year the Bad Science column in the Guardian twigged to the glaring anomaly in sex surveys. You know the ones where the news paper report always report (po faced) goes something like this&#8230;. &#8216;the latest sex survey reports that men have 18 partners and women have five a year a decade a century, etc etc&#8217; or 5 vs 2 or 7 vs 1 etc, etc. </p>
<p>The only difference in this was last year or the year before when ew Zealnd came up with exactly the reverse which made me think that the New Zealanders saw us Australians coming to do yet another sex survey and they decided to mess with the brians of those doing the survey</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 02:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>I imagine you&#039;d survey a sample population and then use models to extrapolate the results out.

Although &#039;unwanted; is a bit of a subjective term. &#039;Unplanned&#039; is probably better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I imagine you&#8217;d survey a sample population and then use models to extrapolate the results out.</p>
<p>Although &#8216;unwanted; is a bit of a subjective term. &#8216;Unplanned&#8217; is probably better.</p>
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		<title>By: JeremyC</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>JeremyC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-124</guid>
		<description>How do you collect statistics on the number of unwanted pregnancies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you collect statistics on the number of unwanted pregnancies?</p>
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		<title>By: iain</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Following on from christian&#039;s comment on contraception. I heard a statistic recently on the Guardian Science podcast basically saying that the annual increase in world population is roughly equal to the number of unwanted pregnancies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following on from christian&#8217;s comment on contraception. I heard a statistic recently on the Guardian Science podcast basically saying that the annual increase in world population is roughly equal to the number of unwanted pregnancies.</p>
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		<title>By: JeremyC</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>JeremyC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-122</guid>
		<description>Christian,

It is very depressing to be bracketed with Bjorn Lomborg, and not just because he is an economist.

For some light reading I copied this article from the guardian by George Monbiot today.....I need some cheering up sitting here typing and facing the Friday 5 pm deadline.
.....................................................................
Civilisation ends with a shutdown of human concern. Are we there already?


A powerful novel&#039;s vision of a dystopian future shines a cold light on the dreadful consequences of our universal apathy

George Monbiot
Tuesday October 30, 2007
The Guardian

A few weeks ago I read what I believe is the most important environmental book ever written. It is not Silent Spring, Small Is Beautiful or even Walden. It contains no graphs, no tables, no facts, figures, warnings, predictions or even arguments. Nor does it carry a single dreary sentence, which, sadly, distinguishes it from most environmental literature. It is a novel, first published a year ago, and it will change the way you see the world.

Cormac McCarthy&#039;s book The Road considers what would happen if the world lost its biosphere, and the only living creatures were humans, hunting for food among the dead wood and soot. Some years before the action begins, the protagonist hears the last birds passing over, &quot;their half-muted crankings miles above where they circled the earth as senselessly as insects trooping the rim of a bowl&quot;. McCarthy makes no claim that this is likely to occur, but merely speculates about the consequences.

All pre-existing social codes soon collapse and are replaced with organised butchery, then chaotic, blundering horror. What else are the survivors to do? The only remaining resource is human. It is hard to see how this could happen during humanity&#039;s time on earth, even by means of the nuclear winter McCarthy proposes. But his thought experiment exposes the one terrible fact to which our technological hubris blinds us: our dependence on biological production remains absolute. Civilisation is just a russeting on the skin of the biosphere, never immune from being rubbed against the sleeve of environmental change. Six weeks after finishing The Road, I remain haunted by it.

So when I read the UN&#039;s new report on the state of the planet over the weekend, my mind kept snagging on a handful of figures. There were some bright spots - lead has been removed from petrol almost everywhere and sulphur emissions have been reduced in most rich nations - and plenty of gloom. But the issue that stopped me was production.

Crop production has improved over the past 20 years (from 1.8 tonnes per hectare in the 1980s to 2.5 tonnes today), but it has not kept up with population. &quot;World cereal production per person peaked in the 1980s, and has since slowly decreased&quot;. There will be roughly 9 billion people by 2050: feeding them and meeting the millennium development goal on hunger [halving the proportion of hungry people] would require a doubling of world food production. Unless we cut waste, overeating, biofuels and the consumption of meat, total demand for cereal crops could rise to three times the current level.

There are two limiting factors. One, mentioned only in passing in the report, is phosphate: it is not clear where future reserves might lie. The more immediate problem is water. &quot;Meeting the millennium development goal on hunger will require doubling of water use by crops by 2050.&quot; Where will it come from? &quot;Water scarcity is already acute in many regions, and farming already takes the lion&#039;s share of water withdrawn from streams and groundwater.&quot; Ten per cent of the world&#039;s major rivers no longer reach the sea all year round.

Buried on page 148, I found this statement. &quot;If present trends continue, 1.8 billion people will be living in countries or regions with absolute water scarcity by 2025, and two-thirds of the world population could be subject to water stress.&quot; Wastage and deforestation are partly to blame, but the biggest cause of the coming droughts is climate change. Rainfall will decline most in the places in greatest need of water. So how, unless we engineer a sudden decline in carbon emissions, are we going to feed the world? How, in many countries, will we prevent the social collapse that failure will cause?

The stone drops into the pond and a second later it is smooth again. You will turn the page and carry on with your life. Last week we learned that climate change could eliminate half the world&#039;s species; that 25 primate species are already slipping into extinction; that biological repositories of carbon are beginning to release it, decades ahead of schedule. But everyone is watching and waiting for everyone else to move. The unspoken universal thought is this: &quot;If it were really so serious, surely someone would do something?&quot;

On Saturday, for some light relief from the UN report (who says that environmentalists don&#039;t know how to make whoopee?), I went to a meeting of roads protesters in Birmingham. They had come from all over the country, and between them they were contesting 18 new schemes: a fraction of the road projects the British government is now planning. The improvements to the climate change bill that Hilary Benn, the environment secretary, announced yesterday were welcome. But in every major energy sector - aviation, transport, power generation, house building, coal mining, oil exploration - the government is promoting policies that will increase emissions. How will it make the 60% cut that the bill enforces?

No one knows, but the probable answer is contained in the bill&#039;s great get-out clause: carbon trading. If the government can&#039;t achieve a 60% cut in the UK, it will pay other countries to do it on our behalf. But trading works only if the total global reduction we are trying to achieve is a small one. To prevent runaway climate change, we must cut the greater part - possibly almost all - of the world&#039;s current emissions. Most of the nations with which the UK will trade will have to make major cuts of their own, on top of those they sell to us. Before long we will have to buy our credits from Mars and Jupiter. The only certain means of preventing runaway climate change is to cut emissions here and now.

Who will persuade us to act? However strong the opposition parties&#039; policies appear to be, they cannot be sustained unless the voters move behind them. We won&#039;t be prompted by the media. The BBC drops Planet Relief for fear of breaching its impartiality guidelines: heaven forbid that it should come out against mass death. But it broadcasts a programme - Top Gear - that puts a match to its guidelines every week, and now looks about as pertinent as the Black and White Minstrel Show.

The schedules are crammed with shows urging us to travel further, drive faster, build bigger, buy more, yet none of them are deemed to offend the rules, which really means that they don&#039;t offend the interests of business or the pampered sensibilities of the Aga class. The media, driven by fear and advertising, are hopelessly biased towards the consumer economy and against the biosphere.

It seems to me that we are already pushing other people ahead of us down The Road. As the biosphere shrinks, McCarthy describes the collapse of the protagonist&#039;s core beliefs. I sense that this might be happening already: that a hardening of interests, a shutting down of concern, is taking place among the people of the rich world. If this is true, we do not need to wait for the forests to burn or food supplies to shrivel before we decide that civilisation is in trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian,</p>
<p>It is very depressing to be bracketed with Bjorn Lomborg, and not just because he is an economist.</p>
<p>For some light reading I copied this article from the guardian by George Monbiot today&#8230;..I need some cheering up sitting here typing and facing the Friday 5 pm deadline.<br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;<br />
Civilisation ends with a shutdown of human concern. Are we there already?</p>
<p>A powerful novel&#8217;s vision of a dystopian future shines a cold light on the dreadful consequences of our universal apathy</p>
<p>George Monbiot<br />
Tuesday October 30, 2007<br />
The Guardian</p>
<p>A few weeks ago I read what I believe is the most important environmental book ever written. It is not Silent Spring, Small Is Beautiful or even Walden. It contains no graphs, no tables, no facts, figures, warnings, predictions or even arguments. Nor does it carry a single dreary sentence, which, sadly, distinguishes it from most environmental literature. It is a novel, first published a year ago, and it will change the way you see the world.</p>
<p>Cormac McCarthy&#8217;s book The Road considers what would happen if the world lost its biosphere, and the only living creatures were humans, hunting for food among the dead wood and soot. Some years before the action begins, the protagonist hears the last birds passing over, &#8220;their half-muted crankings miles above where they circled the earth as senselessly as insects trooping the rim of a bowl&#8221;. McCarthy makes no claim that this is likely to occur, but merely speculates about the consequences.</p>
<p>All pre-existing social codes soon collapse and are replaced with organised butchery, then chaotic, blundering horror. What else are the survivors to do? The only remaining resource is human. It is hard to see how this could happen during humanity&#8217;s time on earth, even by means of the nuclear winter McCarthy proposes. But his thought experiment exposes the one terrible fact to which our technological hubris blinds us: our dependence on biological production remains absolute. Civilisation is just a russeting on the skin of the biosphere, never immune from being rubbed against the sleeve of environmental change. Six weeks after finishing The Road, I remain haunted by it.</p>
<p>So when I read the UN&#8217;s new report on the state of the planet over the weekend, my mind kept snagging on a handful of figures. There were some bright spots &#8211; lead has been removed from petrol almost everywhere and sulphur emissions have been reduced in most rich nations &#8211; and plenty of gloom. But the issue that stopped me was production.</p>
<p>Crop production has improved over the past 20 years (from 1.8 tonnes per hectare in the 1980s to 2.5 tonnes today), but it has not kept up with population. &#8220;World cereal production per person peaked in the 1980s, and has since slowly decreased&#8221;. There will be roughly 9 billion people by 2050: feeding them and meeting the millennium development goal on hunger [halving the proportion of hungry people] would require a doubling of world food production. Unless we cut waste, overeating, biofuels and the consumption of meat, total demand for cereal crops could rise to three times the current level.</p>
<p>There are two limiting factors. One, mentioned only in passing in the report, is phosphate: it is not clear where future reserves might lie. The more immediate problem is water. &#8220;Meeting the millennium development goal on hunger will require doubling of water use by crops by 2050.&#8221; Where will it come from? &#8220;Water scarcity is already acute in many regions, and farming already takes the lion&#8217;s share of water withdrawn from streams and groundwater.&#8221; Ten per cent of the world&#8217;s major rivers no longer reach the sea all year round.</p>
<p>Buried on page 148, I found this statement. &#8220;If present trends continue, 1.8 billion people will be living in countries or regions with absolute water scarcity by 2025, and two-thirds of the world population could be subject to water stress.&#8221; Wastage and deforestation are partly to blame, but the biggest cause of the coming droughts is climate change. Rainfall will decline most in the places in greatest need of water. So how, unless we engineer a sudden decline in carbon emissions, are we going to feed the world? How, in many countries, will we prevent the social collapse that failure will cause?</p>
<p>The stone drops into the pond and a second later it is smooth again. You will turn the page and carry on with your life. Last week we learned that climate change could eliminate half the world&#8217;s species; that 25 primate species are already slipping into extinction; that biological repositories of carbon are beginning to release it, decades ahead of schedule. But everyone is watching and waiting for everyone else to move. The unspoken universal thought is this: &#8220;If it were really so serious, surely someone would do something?&#8221;</p>
<p>On Saturday, for some light relief from the UN report (who says that environmentalists don&#8217;t know how to make whoopee?), I went to a meeting of roads protesters in Birmingham. They had come from all over the country, and between them they were contesting 18 new schemes: a fraction of the road projects the British government is now planning. The improvements to the climate change bill that Hilary Benn, the environment secretary, announced yesterday were welcome. But in every major energy sector &#8211; aviation, transport, power generation, house building, coal mining, oil exploration &#8211; the government is promoting policies that will increase emissions. How will it make the 60% cut that the bill enforces?</p>
<p>No one knows, but the probable answer is contained in the bill&#8217;s great get-out clause: carbon trading. If the government can&#8217;t achieve a 60% cut in the UK, it will pay other countries to do it on our behalf. But trading works only if the total global reduction we are trying to achieve is a small one. To prevent runaway climate change, we must cut the greater part &#8211; possibly almost all &#8211; of the world&#8217;s current emissions. Most of the nations with which the UK will trade will have to make major cuts of their own, on top of those they sell to us. Before long we will have to buy our credits from Mars and Jupiter. The only certain means of preventing runaway climate change is to cut emissions here and now.</p>
<p>Who will persuade us to act? However strong the opposition parties&#8217; policies appear to be, they cannot be sustained unless the voters move behind them. We won&#8217;t be prompted by the media. The BBC drops Planet Relief for fear of breaching its impartiality guidelines: heaven forbid that it should come out against mass death. But it broadcasts a programme &#8211; Top Gear &#8211; that puts a match to its guidelines every week, and now looks about as pertinent as the Black and White Minstrel Show.</p>
<p>The schedules are crammed with shows urging us to travel further, drive faster, build bigger, buy more, yet none of them are deemed to offend the rules, which really means that they don&#8217;t offend the interests of business or the pampered sensibilities of the Aga class. The media, driven by fear and advertising, are hopelessly biased towards the consumer economy and against the biosphere.</p>
<p>It seems to me that we are already pushing other people ahead of us down The Road. As the biosphere shrinks, McCarthy describes the collapse of the protagonist&#8217;s core beliefs. I sense that this might be happening already: that a hardening of interests, a shutting down of concern, is taking place among the people of the rich world. If this is true, we do not need to wait for the forests to burn or food supplies to shrivel before we decide that civilisation is in trouble.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-121</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-121</guid>
		<description>Jeremy, Bjorn Lomborg makes a similar argument to the one you expound in the first para. He thinks kyoto is a big waste of money and we should spend more on helping out the developing world.

I don&#039;t know about Australia but where I&#039;m from people still seriously listen to the church about condom use and its a big problem for population growth and stds. The US govt also bowed to its conservative base and cut funding to African aid groups who handed out free condoms. Here in Australia you see the rise of groups like Family First so I wouldnt count out the religious right yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy, Bjorn Lomborg makes a similar argument to the one you expound in the first para. He thinks kyoto is a big waste of money and we should spend more on helping out the developing world.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about Australia but where I&#8217;m from people still seriously listen to the church about condom use and its a big problem for population growth and stds. The US govt also bowed to its conservative base and cut funding to African aid groups who handed out free condoms. Here in Australia you see the rise of groups like Family First so I wouldnt count out the religious right yet.</p>
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		<title>By: JeremyC</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>JeremyC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-120</guid>
		<description>Just another thought even though I guess people have moved on from this topic. That is the issue of population growth. The way I see it is that population growth will defeat all efforts at sustainability. It will also be used by those who believe in growth to justify growth and the argument they will use against us will go like this....&quot; how can you leave people in the developing world hungry and poor, don&#039;t you care about them&quot;?....&quot;With growth we are caring about the poor and giving them opportunities&quot;. This is because a lot of corporates talk about opportunities in the developing world i.e. more opportunities for growth in sales. The other thing is in the growth mindset &#039;opportunities&#039; means  the opportunity to own SUVs, go on long weekends to Bali and own plasma TVs so you can watch Pop Idol (sorry, value judgment there....) I.e. the growth cheer leaders make a value judgment that material things are what life is about.

My solutions  are free contraception and economic and educational opportunities for women. In the pub the other week the point was made to me that the catholic church stood in the way of this. I don&#039;t think the catholic church is the problem for two reasons 1. no one listens to the catholic church but they make a convenient bogeyman and 2. Peter Costello has designed tax incentives for women in Australia to have more babies because he is constantly on public record as saying Australia needs a larger population  so as to meet growth targets ... its all circular reasoning isn&#039;t it. (and don&#039;t forget Costello and John Howard have come down hard on the Catholic church and the other denominations when they criticised the government on work choices).

Excuse me going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just another thought even though I guess people have moved on from this topic. That is the issue of population growth. The way I see it is that population growth will defeat all efforts at sustainability. It will also be used by those who believe in growth to justify growth and the argument they will use against us will go like this&#8230;.&#8221; how can you leave people in the developing world hungry and poor, don&#8217;t you care about them&#8221;?&#8230;.&#8221;With growth we are caring about the poor and giving them opportunities&#8221;. This is because a lot of corporates talk about opportunities in the developing world i.e. more opportunities for growth in sales. The other thing is in the growth mindset &#8216;opportunities&#8217; means  the opportunity to own SUVs, go on long weekends to Bali and own plasma TVs so you can watch Pop Idol (sorry, value judgment there&#8230;.) I.e. the growth cheer leaders make a value judgment that material things are what life is about.</p>
<p>My solutions  are free contraception and economic and educational opportunities for women. In the pub the other week the point was made to me that the catholic church stood in the way of this. I don&#8217;t think the catholic church is the problem for two reasons 1. no one listens to the catholic church but they make a convenient bogeyman and 2. Peter Costello has designed tax incentives for women in Australia to have more babies because he is constantly on public record as saying Australia needs a larger population  so as to meet growth targets &#8230; its all circular reasoning isn&#8217;t it. (and don&#8217;t forget Costello and John Howard have come down hard on the Catholic church and the other denominations when they criticised the government on work choices).</p>
<p>Excuse me going on.</p>
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		<title>By: karthik</title>
		<link>http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/comment-page-1/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>karthik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sustainableenergyblog.org/posts/2007/10/23/talkin-about-growth/#comment-119</guid>
		<description>I just had  the chance to complete the full report and WOW...as Dan said, &#039;an eye opener&#039;...It is really essential that we need to start addressing the growth issues if we had to address Sustainabilty...As pointed out by Rob, it would be interesting to see the response from the developing nations...i would be able to get a few views from my friends back in india...they are all not concerned too much about the whole issue...lets c wat they think...n to Christian&#039;s point, financial payback and growth seems to go hand in hand..as pointed out by Jeremy, the quarter profits keep increasing and firms keep growing.....though these are just on financial growth..the driver is energy, ofcourse...Thanks a lot for the post christian..cheeers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just had  the chance to complete the full report and WOW&#8230;as Dan said, &#8216;an eye opener&#8217;&#8230;It is really essential that we need to start addressing the growth issues if we had to address Sustainabilty&#8230;As pointed out by Rob, it would be interesting to see the response from the developing nations&#8230;i would be able to get a few views from my friends back in india&#8230;they are all not concerned too much about the whole issue&#8230;lets c wat they think&#8230;n to Christian&#8217;s point, financial payback and growth seems to go hand in hand..as pointed out by Jeremy, the quarter profits keep increasing and firms keep growing&#8230;..though these are just on financial growth..the driver is energy, ofcourse&#8230;Thanks a lot for the post christian..cheeers</p>
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